r/The10thDentist • u/[deleted] • 14d ago
Vegans have every right to be upset Animals/Nature
[deleted]
158
u/nonitoni 14d ago
I'm married to a vegan despite being omni. He has no high and mighty attitude. He doesn't guilt trip people about it. When people ask him about it, he fosters healthy conversations and makes suggestions about vegan alternatives he's excited about. This process has been most effective I've seen at getting people to reduce their meat and dairy intake.
When people get forceful about it, it just drives people away. Makes you come off like some proselytizing cult member.
44
u/MyToothEnts 14d ago
I’ve met very few vegans in my life who fit that stereotype, most are like your husband. The reason people don’t realize they’ve met mostly super chill vegans is that not every vegan announces their veganism in every conversation.
8
u/nonitoni 14d ago
I absolutely agree. I've only known one person IRL who's a tool about it. I have recieved messages from two different people on Reddit after asking a question on vegan sub and once talking somewhere about alternatives I liked, both were being fussy about my lack of commitment. So I definitely think it's much more of an internet rage thing than in reality.
I mostly just throw those kind of people into my mental "Karen" folder and move on, rather than judging all vegans for it.
2
2
u/nospamkhanman 11d ago
I'm slowly turning vegan for health issues.
Mostly I've developed such a severe diary allergy that even just the butter they over use at restaurants gives me the runs.
The only "safe" way for me to eat out now adays is to order the vegan option, which unfortunately is usually a salad or something boring.
1
u/nonitoni 11d ago
That's rough. If you're in or ever go to Toronto, I'd be happy to give you some recommendations!
Also, happy cake day!
159
89
u/linguist96 14d ago
you are trying to do the best you can to stop all forms of exploitation
I would highly recommend you look into the working conditions where many companies source their ingredients for vegan foods
60
18
u/FatheroftheAbyss 14d ago
as someone who eats a fuck ton of meat, i just want to say, you guys are right. now, i care too much about the gym to ever give up meat now (and yes, i know you can still get protein as a vegan), but like ethically considered i think the vegans are right.
1
23
4
u/FengMinIsVeryLoud 14d ago
I would highly recommend you look into the working conditions where many companies source their ingredients for nonvegan foods
1
u/kart0ffelsalaat 13d ago
I mean, nobody is denying that vegan food isn't also exploitative. That's just a feature of capitalism.
But in almost all cases, whatever issues regarding efficiency or exploitation you have with vegan food, it's almost always worse for animal products. Because those animals need to eat too, and that food needs to be cultivated too. But per calorie that you consume, it's a lot more than one calorie that has to go into it. For example, people often bring up how bad soy production is for the environment, and it is, but a vast majority of soy is used as animal feed.
By switching from animal products to vegan products, you don't eliminate your impact on the environment, or the exploitation, but in almost all cases, you do reduce it.
1
1
u/ExpertKangaroo7518 13d ago
trying to do the best you can
You literally quoted this and still managed to ignore it and perfectly embody the "yet you participate in society" meme.
1
u/linguist96 13d ago
Not ignoring it, just questioning that OP thinks this is "trying the best"
1
u/ExpertKangaroo7518 13d ago
Fair enough to question it. Could you point me to any sources that show more people, animals, and/or environmental resources like land or water are exploited for vegan food products than non-vegan food products?
1
u/linguist96 13d ago
I highly doubt there have been any studies done, but I'm more questioning the wording and mindset. If your reason for being a vegan is simply, I don't want to eat animals, then I see no issue with that. But if someone, as many vegans I've seen, thinks they're so much better and doing so much more good than everyone else because of their eating choices, then that's where I have an issue. Unless all the food you eat is from your local area and you know all the farmers, bakers, etc. then you're kidding yourself if you think that those vegan products are any less exploitative than any other product.
2
u/ExpertKangaroo7518 13d ago
You asked them to look into the companies producing their vegan products, so I assumed you were basing that on some sort of data. Most vegans have done lots of research on this sort of thing, actually! For me personally, it was looking into the levels of exploitation involved in different diets that led me to my choice. I certainly don't think I'm doing more good across the board than anyone else (thats ridiculous, how could I when I don't know you?), but I do believe it's better to choose the path of least exploitation whenever possible, and that is almost always the vegan choice when it comes to your diet. The hypothetical vegan version of you causes less harm and exploitation than the non-vegan version of you.
For instance, your example about "buying local" is a common misconception. It is almost always better for the environment, takes less resources, and leads to less animal cruelty to eat vegan food, even when your food is shipped from half the world away: https://ourworldindata.org/food-choice-vs-eating-local
1
u/linguist96 13d ago
I guess I also have the unpopular opinion that human lives and exploitation should be dealt with first over animals. (Not saying animals don't matter, but in a hypothetical example, if animals are protected by food harvested by kids then that's not a win for me). We may be operating on different definitions of exploitation, which is probably not something that is going to change.
1
u/ExpertKangaroo7518 13d ago
Honestly I don't think we do have different definitions of exploitation. I also don't think your opinion that humans matter more than animals is unpopular at all, in fact most vegans (myself included) agree with that whole-heartedly.
The majority of crops grown across the world such as soy and corn are grown and harvested to be used as animal feed, so any argument regarding exploitative labor practices or child/slave labor on farms still favor veganism, since growing plants to feed humans directly would reduce the amount we would need to grow. The animal agriculture industry is fraught with exploitative practices for humans as well as animals. There are very few regulations because of the work of meat industry lobbying, it is even illegal to film inside slaughterhouses as a result of ag-gag laws pushed for by companies like Tyson. It is a dangerous, unhealthy line of work that disproportionately employs immigrants and marginalized populations: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8694297/
I think it's fairly disingenuous to encourage OP to look into the source of their vegan food products, and then ignore all the ways choosing vegan has been demonstrably proven to be the more ethical/less exploitative option in almost all cases.
1
u/linguist96 13d ago
Fair enough. Maybe we're just interacting with different groups of vegans then. 🙃
0
37
u/SupaSaiyajin4 14d ago
eat what you want. if you want to be vegan then go ahead and do that just don't tell me to be vegan or call me a horrible person for eating meat. it's the preaching and holier than thou attitude i have a problem with
1
u/VoDoka 13d ago
I'm not even vegan but it takes insane mental gymnastics to not acknowledge that the conditions of modern meat production are attrocious.
Vegan have to compromise for pragmatic reasons and to avoid people just shutting down out of spite, but if you believe killing animals is wrong, "some killing" isn"t really a viable compromise.
Most eaters would also feel very entitled in stepping in with other forms of animal cruelty occuring. If I started kicking a puppy down the street I'm sure many would not consider it "just my choice".
2
u/ExpertKangaroo7518 13d ago
it takes insane mental gymnastics to not acknowledge that the conditions of modern meat production are attrocious
Agreed, and yet it's happening and being upvoted all over this thread. Meat is so ubiquitous that even most polite, innocuous arguments about why it might be unethical are met with insane levels of pushback and vitriol... which kind of proves OP's point.
34
u/__WorkThrowAway__ 14d ago
Truly unpopular. Upvoted.
13
u/xfactorx99 14d ago
I think most people understand vegans would be upset. That’s just not a strong enough reason for the rest of us to change the way we live, nor does it make us want to hear lectures or virtual signaling why eating meat is bad.
7
u/__WorkThrowAway__ 14d ago
This - I agree, I have nothing against vegans nor vegetarians However, with that said - you should be mindful that not everyone shares your views or your dietary restrictions.
With the internet being so easily assessable now, you can simply go online, browse their menu, and pick the restaurant best fit for your needs. Don't just go randomly into a restaurant and complain that there is a lack of alternatives because you refuse to eat meat and ask why there aren't more vegan/vegetarian alternatives.
Do your research & if you're unable to eat out, cook your own food. Don't complain and make a scene because you're just simply going to fuel the vegan stereotypes.
I think it's hilarious how OP responded to me simply thanking me for my feedback and got downvoted 10+ times LMFAO.
0
13d ago
Its not virtue signaling, your diet has a victim and they don't have voices so we give our voices for them.
-2
13d ago
[deleted]
2
u/wildlifewyatt 13d ago
I think the connotation of virtue signaling is that it is done to make others aware of how virtuous they are, or appear to be, rather than having genuine concern or trying to make a difference.
If someone heckles a queer person, and someone stands up for the victim and shoots the bigot down, are they virtue signaling? Or, are they doing what they think is right, defending someone that deserves that compassion, and trying to discourage bad behavior?
It seems to me that when people use the term virtue signaling it is a tactic to discredit an inidivduals intentions and the validity of the cause. Sure, maybe you don’t think it is important and that it is all performative but guess what, that’s exactly what bigots think about people defending queer people, or people defending people of color.
There are undoubtedly some virtue signalers with every cause, but maybe rather than just automatically assuming people have manipulative ulterior motives, it is better to give the benefit of the doubt and accept that they could genuinely care about some you don’t fully understand, and that care could be completely valid. It would be a hell of a better start on seeing commonality and making change than assuming everyone is just stroking their egos and that no one actually cares about anything.
0
u/xfactorx99 13d ago
I'm not assuming that "people have manipulative ulterior motives". I literally understand the motives of a vegan. The see the consumption of meat as immoral and they want everyone to stop eating meat to because of that. There's nothing "manipulative" or "ulterior" there.
0
u/wildlifewyatt 13d ago
Well that's kinda the meaning of virtue signaling. The point is to flaunt your stance or view on a subject not for the intent of making a difference, but to signal one's moral superiority. So to say
nor does it make us want to hear lectures or virtual signaling why eating meat is bad.
makes it sound like you think people are just trying to stroke their own ego. Which is why I said what I said, virtue signaling is manipulation with an ulterior motive.
It sounds like that isn't your view though, so the issue is probably a slight misunderstanding of what virtue signaling in particular is. Making changes toward something better, and advocating for other's to do the same isn't the same thing as virtue signaling.
4
13d ago
That isn't virtue signaling. Virtue signaling is when you do/say something to show people "how good you are". Most vegans aren't trying to show other people "how good they are" rather they want you to stop exploiting animals.
0
u/xfactorx99 13d ago
Yes, that’s exactly where the vegan stereotype comes from. People get annoyed by vegans because they talk about veganism often to show they are living a more virtuous life
0
13d ago
We don't care if you're annoyed, we care for the animals you thoughtlessly consume. We're not doing it to show people how good we are, we do it because your choices have a victim.
0
u/xfactorx99 13d ago
Exactly. We're on the same page then. You don't care about the people you're discussing the topic with and they don't care about your dietary choices either. That's how you get no where.
-1
13d ago edited 13d ago
We aren't doing it to be virtuous though. If someone punched a kid, would you be worried about the kid or the person who punched the kid? Would you call a person virtue signaling if he tells adults to stop punching kids? If there was a whole culture of adults punching kids, you think the people who say "For every kid you don't punch, I'll punch two" can be reasoned with if you can't be abrasive in your approach?
Veganism isn't a dietary choice. Its a moral philosophy trying to minimize the exploitation of animals in our lives. Because they suffer just like us.
-1
u/xfactorx99 13d ago
If people where organizing around to petition against violence against kids they would be signaling that others should live a more virtuous life that does not include harm to children. It stays consistent whether you’re talking about animals or children.
I apologize for calling it a dietary choice; I completely understand it is also a moral philosophy
→ More replies (0)-12
u/grasseater5272 14d ago
Thanks for your feedback 👍
10
u/Thijmo737 14d ago
I like how people are saying vegans should be gentler and proceed to downvote this comment.
1
u/Economy_Landscape941 14d ago
What else I'm supposed to do . I know karma is so important and is often underestimated on it vaule but what other decisions could I make
-3
u/dotdedo 14d ago
People start foaming at the mouth if I say I eat vegan food. I’m not. I didn’t know I had to convert to veganism just to eat fruits and vegetables lmao
4
u/Vespasian79 14d ago
What? I also eat fruits and vegetables but I never describe it as “I eat vegan food” lol
→ More replies (2)
13
u/Chickadee12345 14d ago
People get so annoyed with vegans because some (not all) vegans have such a holier than thou attitude. They want to constantly remind us how horrible and sinful and bad for planet it is to eat meat. There is nothing wrong with being vegan if that's how you feel. But don't rub it in our faces. I'm not saying you, personally, are like this. But I will admit, there are people that have the reaction that they could not possible eat a vegan meal and get pissed if you even suggest it. So, moral of the story, some people just suck.
-8
u/Deathaster 14d ago
They want to constantly remind us how horrible and sinful and bad for planet it is to eat meat
Depends on how you define "eating meat". Catching your own fish or game, or getting meat from the local farmer? Not really unethical.
Factory farming? Highly unethical, and is destroying the planet. That's the important distinction to make.
16
u/Chickadee12345 14d ago
I am not vegan or even vegetarian. But a lot of the vegans would not make that distinction. It wouldn't matter where the meat came from. I don't disagree with you, I wish we had more local farmers in my area. My SOs family has a small cabin in the Catskills of NY. There are tons of farmers up there who raise and sell their own things. I always buy local products when I can when we're up there.
-6
u/Deathaster 14d ago
I am not vegan or even vegetarian. But a lot of the vegans would not make that distinction. It wouldn't matter where the meat came from.
That's not true. There's varying degrees to it all. The fact there's a distinction between "vegetarian" and "veganism" already shows people want to differentiate. Some are fine with just not eating meat, others don't want to consume any animal products.
I used to eat meat that was at least already prepared and would have been thrown away, so no animal had to die for me specifically. Stopped doing that eventually because I didn't feel comfortable with eating another creature in general.
7
u/Vespasian79 14d ago
I didn’t feel comfortable eating another creature in general
…. This line more or less proved that dudes point lol but okay
40
u/arist0geiton 14d ago
You can't stop "all forms of exploitation," that's why it's a ludicrous ideology. Just by living you are the beneficiary of numerous acts of violence, including those committed in farming. Consider how farm workers are treated. Vegans' hypocrisy and willing refusal to think about the world are what makes it absurd, not what they eat. Nobody cares what they eat.
29
u/Deathaster 14d ago
I'm vegan and I don't believe in solving "all forms of exploitation", and I've never met a vegan who does. I just want to lessen the amount of animal suffering as much as I can. That's literally it.
9
u/xfactorx99 14d ago
And that objective totally makes sense. The thing is to achieve that objective that requires you to persuade others to change their way of living and a lot of people don’t want to hear you tell them what’s good for them
3
→ More replies (2)0
u/frogs_4_lyfe 14d ago
To add to this, millions of animals are killed every year to farm our food. We can't exist in this world without something suffering. I try to eat a few vegetarian meals a week but I won't lie to myself that it doesn't hurt things.
0
u/ExpertKangaroo7518 13d ago
No vegans are lying to themselves that their diet doesn't hurt things. The whole point of veganism is reducing harm as much as you can.
From a sheer numbers game your comparison is laughable and comes off as disingenuous. 500 million birds are killed EVERY DAY by the meat industry. 10 billion animals are slaughtered every year in US factory farms alone, and over a trillion animals are killed for their meat every year. That's trillion, with a T. That is not counting all the rodents, insects, etc, killed harvesting the crops it takes to feed those animals, or the entire species that have been wiped out and even gone extinct because of deforestation in places like the Amazon to clear space for cattle farming.
42
u/bmore_conslutant 14d ago
You can feel however you want we just want you to shut the fuck up about it
5
u/ExpertKangaroo7518 13d ago
Do you feel this way about behaviors you personally find immoral? If your neighbor was beating their dog, would you say something or try to stop them?
1
u/Ill-Vacation-4219 12d ago
Ok so instead of beating the dog we will exclusively beat the cat is what you're saying? Plants surprisingly don't want to die either. The entire world is based on the suffering of others and it will never change unless we find a way to undergo photosynthesis.
1
u/ExpertKangaroo7518 12d ago
Veganism is all about harm reduction. Obviously the world will never be a perfect utopia without any suffering, but that doesn't give us moral impunity to hurt or abuse others however we want.
Also, even if plants "didn't want to die" (they dont have central nervous systems) we would still reduce the number of plants that are harmed and killed by going vegan, since we grow so many plants to feed our livestock. Turns out, the hundreds of millions of cows and pigs we slaughter every year eat a LOT of plants.
If you want to throw your hands up, embrace nihilism, and justify whatever unethical behavior you want to because there will always be suffering in the world, feel free. But if we're attempting to reduce the harm we cause others, veganism is the way to go on almost every front. Pretty much undeniably.
-12
u/GroundbreakingBag164 14d ago
Oh we won’t. Being vegan gives you an endless amount of energy for arguing
9
5
u/dogyeeter9000 14d ago edited 14d ago
As a vegan, sadly nobody cares. I agree vegans have all the right to be upset, but if someone really cares about their cause they have to put their feelings aside and act in the most productive way. Sadly many people associate being emotional and being annoying, with being wrong.
For the people saying you don’t want it rubbed in your faces though: it’s impossible for someone to FORCE you to feel guilty. The only thing someone can do is trigger guilt inside of you. If you kick a rock, and someone tries to guilt trip you, they won’t manage. If you kill an animal and someone can guilt trip you, i think it’s for a reason
7
u/BoyChubtastic 14d ago
I feel like this thread is too american for me to understand. In Europe, I have not seen this "angry oppressed vegan" vs "giga chad meat eater alpha" battle take place.
24
u/tactical_anal_RPG 14d ago
"Exploitation"
If deer weren't hunted for food then their population would grow out of control and ravage all sorts of wildlife.
-39
u/Deathaster 14d ago
That's... not even what veganism is about? Veganism is about not consuming any animal products, to varying degrees. What does that have to do with deer populations lol
25
u/tactical_anal_RPG 14d ago
Because you and I both know there are vegans who look at anyone who eats meat as murderers.
Killing and eating deer preserves them, but some people in the vegan community see that as murder.
"What does that have to do with deer population."
I just gave an example where people hunt deer and EAT THEM (you literally said veganism is about not consuming animal products) so that wild deer populations don't die off from over population.
-20
u/Deathaster 14d ago edited 14d ago
You're talking about a super specific issue that isn't even what most of veganism is about. Yes, it's a part of the discussion, but not the focus. Plus, "if no one ate meat, no animals would die" isn't what vegans think either.
"Exploitation" refers to the fact that animals are horribly mistreated in factories, rarely seeing sunlight, barely having room to move around, getting culled just for being the wrong gender, etc etc.
It's especially devious because these animals are very smart, even compassionate creatures. Cows are playful and social. Chickens can learn tricks. Pigs are incredibly smart too. And yet, they get separated from their family, stuffed into tiny boxes and after a life of suffering, get killed for their parts.
I'm vegan. I understand that sometimes, killing animals is necessary (though it's debatable for deer populations, not something I wanna get into tho). Doesn't mean I support factory farming.
In a perfect world, humans would just hunt a few animals now and then to feed themselves, and that'd be absolutely fine. I'd probably still eat meat if that were possible. But because it's downright impossible to not exploit and mistreat animals, it's not okay. So I don't eat any meat. If you wanna eat meat, go ahead, your decision. Just stop pretending like it's without any issues.
15
u/tactical_anal_RPG 14d ago
OP said "all forms of exploitation."
Since there are vegans who think killing deer would be considered exploitation, I brought it up. Not only is it relevant but it's also widely known how disastrous it would be for not only deer populations, but also local flora populations as well if ill deer hunting ceased.
It's downright impossible to not exploit and mistreat animals.
So you admit that you think hunting deer is exploitative, even though you claim that its not at first
-4
u/Deathaster 14d ago edited 14d ago
OP said "all forms of exploitation."
I didn't even agree with OP on that one, since that's an unrealistic goal.
So you admit that you think hunting deer is exploitative, even though you claim that its not at first
I was talking about factory farming there. I literally said that if humans just hunted now and then and that's it, it'd be (mostly) perfectly fine. But deer overpopulation is already a man-made issue, and factory farming even more so.
6
u/tactical_anal_RPG 14d ago
So to fix a man made issue like over population, your solution is... to do nothing and let the population get bigger?
5
u/Deathaster 14d ago
You seem to really only want to discuss that one aspect, I just wanted to explain what veganism is mainly about. Guess we talked past each other at some point. Have a nice one.
7
u/tactical_anal_RPG 14d ago
Veganism is about not consuming any animal products, to varying degrees. What does that have to do with deer populations lol
Are deer not considered "animal products?"
I used deer because its one aspect where not killing them will have negative effects on the environment as a whole.
2
u/Stable_Immediate 14d ago
Bro they literally said that hunting is fine. Speaking as a carnivore, I've never met any vegans like OP. It's obvious that OP has an immature and naive view, or they just haven't explained it properly.
Maybe you're new to Reddit or something, but the guy you're replying to isn't OP. With this new information, you should read your conversation again.
Your replies make it seem that you didn't even read their comments. Their objection is to unnecessary cruelty to animals in factory farms. I'm not sure why you're obsessed with an issue that they didn't even disagree with
1
u/thebestofmylove 13d ago
even outside meat farming (ie keeping live stock as pets) culling animals who are aggressive (like roosters) is important for the health and safety of the entire flock
11
u/kismethavok 14d ago
So when are you going to stop exploiting all those plants, fungi and bacteria?
-4
u/Deathaster 14d ago
The second plants and fungi start developing brains smart enough to have thoughts and feelings, I'll stop eating them.
But until then, you literally need to eat to survive. You just don't need meat.
4
u/keIIzzz 14d ago
Except a lot of people do need animal based proteins and nutrients. Y’all conveniently ignore how many people experience nutrient deficiencies and health issues after turning vegan. Plenty of people literally cannot physically be vegan. Humans are naturally omnivores, being vegan is the minority
1
u/ExpertKangaroo7518 13d ago
Source on any of this? All the leading causes of death worldwide are diet-related illnesses such as heart disease. Are vegans dying by the millions every year with their arteries clogged with plants?
There are a literal BILLION vegetarians in the world. If you have some rare mysterious disease that means you require meat in your diet, you are a scientific anomaly and in the tiny, tiny minority. More likely you're just making shit up.
0
u/wildlifewyatt 13d ago
Do you see an ethical difference between producing and consuming non-sentient organisms to sustain out lives, and exploiting/killing sentient organisms even though we have an alternative? If you were given a knife and either had to cut through a stalk of broccoli or sever a limb off a cat, which of these is more ethical? Which do you realistically results in more harm?
As someone indicated below, there are people who live in areas like the arctic circle or people in rural, arid, infertile lands that do need to rely on animal agriculture for now. There are some people who have medical conditions that make being vegan harder, or, in some cases, impossible at this time. But their situations have nothing to do with the rest of us. They should not be used as a shield to absolve everyone else who can work towards ending the largest cause of unnecessary exploitation, suffering, and death on the planet.
-17
u/grasseater5272 14d ago
That’s not relevant..plants do not have the necessary sensory organs to process pain. Before someone mentions Venus fly traps they move the same way your heart beats. Reflex, this doesn’t mean your heart is sentient.
11
u/Qoat18 14d ago
The workers on the farms you buy shit from absolutely do though
2
u/wildlifewyatt 13d ago
And children lose limbs to meat grinders in meat processing plants (https://amp.kansascity.com/news/nation-world/national/article278097447.html)
We can and should improve the working conditions for all workers. This includes those exploited for produce. But the existence of bad labor practices in the production of plants doesn’t mean it is therefore ethical for us to exploit and kill animals when we don’t need to. This is just deflection.
1
u/Qoat18 13d ago
That's horrible, it still doesn't really compare to the horrific systemic exploitation of farmers in third world countries dude
Like it's gross, but it's not nearly as bad of an issue
1
u/ExpertKangaroo7518 13d ago
Let's talk about those poor farmers! If the world went vegan, we'd reduce agricultural land use by 75%, since so much of what we grow goes towards feeding livestock. It is always more efficient to grow plants to feed people, rather than growing plants to feed animals to feed people. That is how trophic levels work.
You should also look into how dangerous and unhealthy slaughterhouses are for their workers, a truly awful industry that disproportionately exploits underprivileged and marginalized populations.
1
u/wildlifewyatt 13d ago
It's more than "gross", the kid lost his hand. And he isn't alone. There is a systemic problem of underage migrants being employed by and in slaughterhouses in the U.S. [1, 2, 3]. I think we would find the slaughterhouses in the developing world would often be worse.
I suggest you check out the this investigative piece NBC on the issue. it's only 16 minutes:
Slaughterhouse children: The dark truth behind the meat you eat
With that said, there is a lot of terrible exploitation that happens to farm workers around the world. But it isn't just farm workers, it is workers in general. As a society, we should try to work together and collectively identify these bad practices and avoid them as we can. In good faith to the serious nature of this topic I'll say this to anyone reading: Cashews are a good example of a plant product with a heavy human toll in many supply lines. The deshelling process is often done by hand and workers receive terrible skin reactions from the chemicals that are released by the plant. They are a tasty nut, but we owe the workers a collective dialogue on the subject and action.
So we can and should fight for better workers rights but you can do this at the same time as you fight for animal rights. The way these fights go may be different though. In some cases outright boycotts probably are the right choice, in others in might not be possible or effective. Going vegan is an absolutely achievable goal for hundreds of millions, potentially billions of people. But avoiding all food with any ethical implications just isn't. There simply isn't enough "completely ethical" food on the planet.
So with that all in mind, if we are trying to make a roadmap toward the best world we can reasonably make, why shouldn't we take the route that removes the non-animal exploitation from the picture? Doesn't avoiding the exploitation, suffering, and death of tens of billions of animals a year have enough value to pursue that?
8
u/freakytapir 14d ago
To me it's not the Veganism per sé, it's the attitude.
As if they're somehow morally superior. They assume their moral choice should be everyone's choice, and will loudly exclaim so to people who are just not interested.
All vegetarians I know have converted of their own choice. No amount of shouting or preaching will make a meat eater a vegetarian or vegan.
Just as bad is how suddenly every simple social outing suddenly has to be around their preferences. You're with a group, and there's one Vegan, suddenly you have to go and find a restaurant with enough Vegan options, you spend a lot of time wasted to wind up eating expensive food you didn't want, and you just cemented everyone's dislike for Vegans just a bit more. (If I'm paying steak dinner prices, I want a steak dinner)
Or you invite a group, and suddenly you're supposed to supply Vegan options too. Or they don't even tell you they're vegan and just expect there to be a Vegan dish. You want Vegan at my place? You bring it yourself. Maybe I'll dig some carrots and tomatoes from the fridge. Some banana. Bon appetit.
1
u/Deathaster 14d ago
All I'm getting from that is that you refuse to make accommodations for others. Like, veganism aside, what's the problem with making sure everyone has something they want to eat?
If someone's allergic to something, do you also roll your eyes and go "Gee, now I have to find an alternative for that one too"? Or people who don't eat certain things for religious reasons?
If it bothers you so much, then stop inviting these people. I'm sure they don't want to hang out with someone who thinks they're an annoyance anyway, plenty of people out there who are much nicer.
So I find it very ironic you criticize vegans for their attitude while not even wanting to move a single inch to make someone happy.
10
u/kel584 14d ago
Allergic people are completely different from vegans. They biologically aren't able to consume those products and in some cases it could even be lethal. Unlike being vegan where you still can eat those products, but choose not to out of what they think is right. Which is fine, but they're different from allergic people.
3
u/keIIzzz 14d ago
Allergies are generally a lot easier to accommodate for as well. Vegan restaurants are not common where I live, and having to buy vegan ingredients to cook with to accommodate for someone is expensive.
2
u/kel584 14d ago
Yup. Plus, it also changes how you view their circumstances. You may be annoyed at a vegan person because they chose to have an eating style that is out of ordinary, while the allergic person was literally forced into that position, so you are more sympathetic and may be more willing to accomadate them.
9
u/freakytapir 14d ago
Especially on the allergy front, I would for sure ask if they wouldn't rather bring food they know is safe, yes. They know their allergy best.
As far as the religion based exceptions, usually those are pretty easy to solve. Can't eat pork? Well, Guess I'll slap some Halal veal in a separate pan for him/her, and be done with it. He can still enjoy most side dishes. Vegatarian? Sure, I'll bake a veggie burger or some nice mushrooms.
But Veganism requires me to make dishes I have no idea how to make, for each course. I can't just make "Regular food" but leave out the butter, milk and eggs.
Now, my tone might have bene a bit harsh in that post. Got a bit swept away.
Off course I wouldn't just go "Bring your own food, you Filthy Vegan".
I'd word it more "Hey, I know you're Vegan, and I actually have no idea how to make a good Vegan dish. I think it best if you could bring something you know you'll like."-1
u/Deathaster 14d ago
You say you don't know how to prepare a vegan meal, but you know how to make veggie burgers with mushrooms. Most of the time, those burgers are vegan. It's just about whether or not you put cheese on them.
Fries are vegan. Spaghetti with tomato sauce is vegan. Lots of vegan soups and salads out there. I'm sure even you eat tons of vegan meals without even being aware of it, so it's not impossible to figure something out. You could also ask your vegan friends what kind of meals they like to eat, which is what you can do with anyone, no matter their dietary preferences.
Now, my tone might have bene a bit harsh in that post.
It was less your harsh tone and more the fact you complained about vegans supposedly being all high and mighty, while also not wanting to accommodate them the tiniest bit.
You even complained about having to make sure a restaurant had enough vegan options, which just makes you come across like someone who doesn't even consider other people.
2
u/grasseater5272 14d ago
Thanks for the feedback, I was expecting the worst posting this lol but thanks for providing a real response
1
13d ago
It is morally superior in the same way that not punching kids is morally superior. Its the moral baseline to expect people not to punch kids, and its only your guilty conscience that makes you feel like we're trying to be morally superior for trying to make people to stop punching kids.
0
u/Sad-Welcome-8048 11d ago
You do realize there are vegan options at pretty much any restaurant, right? (fries, chips and salsa, etc.) If you dont like hanging out with me because you have to accommodate my choices (which I have every right to make and ask for accommodation), why would I want to be friends with you?
-1
u/MizzGee 14d ago
No, I am a much better hostess than that, and I cook well enough I can make things without butter, milk and cheese in several sides that omnivores will enjoy as well. But, no, I don't like going with vegans to a steak restaurant. For those friends, we will do lunch at a vegan- friendly place or I will help host at their place. My fat ass doesn't need meat at every meal, after all.
5
u/PotentJelly13 14d ago
The irony of this comment is awesome.
They said: “… it’s the attitude. As if they’re somehow morally superior.”
Then you reply with the most perfect example of that attitude telling this person you’re a better host and a better cook. Lmfao
Like you could have said that in so many ways that weren’t literally: “no, I’m better and here’s why.”
Gah, that’s hilarious 😂
-1
u/MizzGee 14d ago
If someone wants to refuse to cook for someone they invited over, that isn't hosting. But I realize most of the people reading this are upper-middle class and above and put their own privilege above welcoming someone genuinely into ones home.
Honestly, I would think some of you were raised in a barn, but you were mainly raised in suburbia.
2
u/wickedfemale 14d ago
what does being vegan have to do with stopping all forms of exploitation?
0
u/ExpertKangaroo7518 13d ago
Do you really not understand this? Vegans boycott meat and other animal products because they are the direct result of animal exploitation and abuse.
1
u/wickedfemale 13d ago
but are those all forms of exploitation...? plenty of non-animal products are still produced exploitatively. it just seems like a really disingenuous claim.
1
u/ExpertKangaroo7518 13d ago
I see what you're saying now. I do feel like that wording is a little odd from OP, when I assume they're specifically talking about the exploitation related to veganism.
6
u/Adventurous-Depth984 14d ago
Who you are and what you do should be fine, right up until you tell someone that they’re not fine and what they should do.
I have never seen someone eating a salad and have a random person come up to them and say “you should put some meat on that salad!!”
On the other hand, I’ve been approached by a stranger at a restaurant by someone who took offense to what I was eating while minding my own damn business.
2
u/ExpertKangaroo7518 13d ago edited 13d ago
Do you feel this way about someone who likes to kick dogs? Or beat their spouse? Or be sexist, racist, transphobic, etc? Or do you pick and choose which values it's okay to speak up about?
People sitting back and letting everyone else do whatever they want is a terrible way to make social progress. That mentality has led to some of the worst atrocities in human history. I would encourage you to read the Letter from Birmingham Jail written by MLK a few years before his death.
(also if you think vegans aren't CONSTANTLY berated for their food choices and told they should put some meat on their salad, you should seriously try spending a day in our shoes lol)
3
u/TechnicalPyro 14d ago edited 13d ago
veganism is like religion keep it to yourself and remember it only affects YOU not the rest of us ... moving on
edit because clearly the effect im referring too is being missed. the choice to be vegan is one you make for you and you alone you cannot force others into it as for the wider effects of farming meat thats not what i am talking about
1
u/VoDoka 13d ago
This such nonsense and I'm not even vegan. I'm in the EU and meat production is heavily subsidized so it's not just private choice but public funds. It also harms the environment, ties up ressources (plant matter, water etc.) and creates resistance to antibiotics which will likely be devestating in the comming years. The last freaking pandemic even stemmed from a meat market and vegans didn't get to skip it.
1
u/lapsangsouchogn 14d ago
That's pretty much my stance. I eat meat and fish, but I really dislike those seafood platters where your meal consists of a dozen or more creatures that used to be alive.
Eating part of a cow or chicken or fish is fine by me, but having so many die for your meal hits me wrong.
But I don't tell that to other people, especially the ones eating the seafood platters.
-1
u/ExpertKangaroo7518 13d ago
But your diet doesn't only affect you. I don't give a shit what you do up until you start abusing animals, then I'm going to say "hey, stop abusing animals." It's not that hard a concept to wrap your mind around.
2
u/TechnicalPyro 13d ago
my diet does indeed only affect me
your choices are yours my choices are mine
you do not now or ever get to dictate what choices i make and you can keep your choices to yourself im not about to shove a steak down your throat so dont shove your choices down mine
-1
u/ExpertKangaroo7518 13d ago
my diet does indeed only affect me
To say this, and then immediately talk about the cow that has literally died for your diet is a level of ignorance (or maybe selfishness?) I just can't understand.
This isn't about you or me. It's about the sentient animal that was forcibly bred, enslaved, tortured, and slaughtered at a fraction of its lifespan so you could have 10 minutes of pleasure eating your steak. Vegans don't give a shit about what you eat, we just want you to stop abusing animals.
2
u/TechnicalPyro 13d ago
tell you what you keep your sanctimonious bullshit to yourself and out of my life i wont eat meat in front of you as i stated in my original reply just like religion veganism is something you can do for YOU
you cannot force others to follow your beliefs and the fact you think you can makes you a major asshole
-1
u/ExpertKangaroo7518 13d ago
I'll repeat, this isn't about me, or you, or my beliefs, or my "religion". This is about the living creature that died for your diet today that you STILL haven't acknowledged.
2
u/TechnicalPyro 13d ago
go eats your plants i will continue to eat meat because i am an omnivore and again your personal beliefs regulate what you do not what the rest of us do
1
u/Loop_holer69 13d ago
So you think that beating and bruising animals is no different from eating meat?
Not exactly the connection you want to be making.
1
u/Fugi_not_Figi 14d ago
I’m omnivorous and I don’t like when people try to dictate how I eat. Isn’t it American vegan culture that is doing all the ridiculing of everyone else? Even in your post, you’re taking the holier than thou approach. I Guarantee, no one would bother you let alone know about your veganism if you didn’t make it your entire personality trait. No one gives a shit about what you eat. Definitely an unpopular opinion 👏🏻👏🏻
1
u/Critical_Moose 14d ago
I agree. Though I'm also vegan. I'm not usually confrontational about it (at least not in person), but it's very easy to anger someone when the thing you do is seen as morally abhorrent to them.
1
u/honeyb0518 14d ago
Honestly, I'm on the other end of this spectrum. I grow my own food and hunt for my protein as much as possible. If someone is vegan or vegetarian and they want to give me shit for hunting, I completely understand it. But when people eat meat and then hate on ethical sustainable hunting, I have no respect for them. I believe in being connected to your food and knowing where it comes from whether you harvest it or not.
1
u/cburgess7 13d ago
I am way too tired to get into a full fledged argument, but the vegan industry is wraught with exploitation and cruelty. No matter how "cruelty free" you try to go, living creature somewhere was harmed to some degree in the process.
1
u/ExpertKangaroo7518 13d ago
Shouldn't we try to minimize the harm our choices cause? Or do we just give up and do whatever we want because the world will never be perfect?
1
u/cburgess7 13d ago
Maybe, but I am in so much pain daily that I just do not care, I only look forward to the end
1
u/ExpertKangaroo7518 13d ago
If this is true, I'm genuinely sorry. Hope things turn around for you and you're able to find some healing.
1
u/wildlifewyatt 13d ago
There is exploitation and cruelty throughout the world and through most or all of its systems. But The degree and the amount matters. If veganism can remove the vast majority of unnecessary suffering and exploitation for sentient beings in the world, and it can, it is the better option.
Your argument sounds rather similar to “it can’t be perfect, so don’t advocate for massive improvements” which is something that is easy to say from the perspective of someone who isn’t dying over the issue.
1
u/TheExtreel 13d ago
You are trying to do the best you can to stop all forms of exploitation and you are ridiculed in the process
You think you're stopping ALL forms of exploitation because of your diet, that's why you're ridiculed.
Is this attitude, is very specifically this. You think way to highly of yourself, like what you decide to eat actually has some kind of meaningful and positive effect in the entire world and everyone would immediately become depressed the second you decide to eat a hot dog.
Like listen to yourself, you're fighting to stop ALL FORMS OF EXPLOITATION. That includes slave labor, unpaid overtime, underage marriages, forced prostitution, and also cock fighting rings, horse races, etc. You think that because you don't put ham in a sandwich, you're actively helping stop all of this, when in reality even if every human on earth did exactly what you wanted them to eat, none of this would stop.
You can make decisions of what you eat based on moral stances, that's completely ok. But you don't get to demonise people who don't follow the same diet as you simply because they don't try to moralize their diet.
Bottom line is, you aren't doing nearly a fraction of the help you think you do, and you behave like people aren't giving you the recognition you belive you deserve for saving the world by not eating chicken nuggets.
You will be endlessly mocked until your attitude and self importance changes, simple as...
0
u/ExpertKangaroo7518 13d ago
And your attitude is very specifically this: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/we-should-improve-society-somewhat
Why shouldn't we fight to try and make the world a better place? No vegan thinks they are perfect or that they are stopping all forms of exploitation with their diet. Not a single one. We just follow a very specific and simple belief: less animal cruelty > more animal cruelty. Reducing harm is the goal behind the entire movement.
If your neighbor was beating his dog, would you tell him to stop?
1
u/TheExtreel 13d ago
No vegan thinks they are perfect or that they are stopping all forms of exploitation with their diet
That's literally what he said tho.
I quoted him directly...
0
u/ExpertKangaroo7518 13d ago
trying to do the best you can to stop all forms of exploitation
Did you miss the first part of the sentence?
1
u/TheExtreel 13d ago
That is clearly a reference to his diet, hes claiming being vegan is his best effort...
0
u/ExpertKangaroo7518 13d ago
I don't know what to tell you, man. I said this:
No vegan thinks they are perfect or that they are stopping all forms of exploitation with their diet
And you continue to claim OP does think that, even though they never said that and I guarantee they don't believe it. They, like all vegans, are trying their best to work towards a world without exploitation, even though realistically none of us will ever see that world realized.
1
u/TheExtreel 13d ago
even though they never said that and I guarantee they don't believe it.
I don't know if you have reading issues or what, that's literally what he said. I don't know if this is some poor attempt at gaslighting or something...
1
1
u/ibeerianhamhock 12d ago
Veganism, whether you like to admit it, is morally ambiguous. The problem is vegans think they have the moral high ground and I just don't agree. Interacting with peopel who believe they have the moral high ground is always insufferable.
1
u/flfoiuij2 12d ago
I think most vegans are actually very nice people; I know a vegetarian myself, and although that isn’t the same thing, it’s similar. However, there is a small percentage of vegans who try to aggressively force their beliefs on everyone else, and that’s giving the rest of y’all a bad rap. Therefore, some people act with hostility towards vegans.
1
u/LetItRaine386 11d ago
All consumption in capitalism involves exploitation. When we harvest grains, we do it with giant machines that murder families of small mammals.
1
u/Sad-Welcome-8048 11d ago
As a vegan, I literally have never tried to convince another person, I just explain why I am personally (mostly health reasons, not ethical ones). Then the conversation turns to "but not forever right?" or "you will grow out of it" (Im 25), or even "my kid used to be vegan, their not anymore, you will see"
Why are my dietary choices less valid then yours simply because you dont personally make those choices? Its stupid and frankly has lead me to only say Im vegan if actively being offered food thats not
1
u/angry_old_dude 14d ago
I’m not a vegan and I don’t like when people dictate how I’m supposed to feel, what I'm supposed to do or how I'm supposed to live my life. If you're evangelizing, you're doing to others exactly what you don't want done to you and you should expect to get shit for it.
1
1
u/FengMinIsVeryLoud 14d ago
i eat 140g protein daily. i lack 200% of the rda for person who grows muscle.
yours truly - a vegan who doesnt find carnists funny.
1
u/outtaslight 14d ago
"...surrounded by hatred for doing the right thing."
It's what you perceive is the "right" thing. Your opinion or moral code is not the only one that's valid, and there's where the problem is, imo.
Kill "em with kindness. No one is swayed through self-righteousness.
1
u/ExpertKangaroo7518 13d ago
I think just about everyone believes animal cruelty is wrong... so it's not really about what vegans perceive to be the right thing, it's about wanting people to align their choices with what they already believe. If we can all agree that unnecessary animal cruelty is bad, then the natural next step is attempting to reduce unnecessary animal cruelty, no?
I get your point that no one is swayed through self-righteousness. How would you suggest vegans stand up for the victims of the meat industry? In my experience there is no "right way" to do it, as it's simply not a topic meat-eaters ever want to discuss in any capacity, regardless of the language or tone or methodology used.
1
1
14d ago
[deleted]
1
u/Alarmed-Hawk2895 14d ago
Why would someone feel sorry for a carrot?
1
14d ago
[deleted]
0
u/Alarmed-Hawk2895 14d ago
But it's not sentient. Why feel sorry for something that cannot feel?
0
13d ago
[deleted]
0
u/Alarmed-Hawk2895 13d ago
Right, but there's no reason to think a carrot is sentient, hence the distinction between cow and carrot, hence "where it ends". With sentience.
1
13d ago
[deleted]
0
u/Alarmed-Hawk2895 13d ago
No central nervous system, no complex behaviour, only reaction to stimuli, scientific consensus.
1
13d ago
[deleted]
0
u/Sad-Welcome-8048 11d ago
Do you believe carrots have sentience? Cause carrots (the part we eat) is a storage organ; its harvesting and consumption is part of its evolved lifecycle.
Its like saying the fat in your bell is sentient because its attached to you
→ More replies (0)
1
1
u/CyanideTacoZ 14d ago
there isn't really an ethical way to eat and ensure no living animals were abused human or not eating in today's world short of going full stardew valley and forming a community of bisexuals
0
u/wildlifewyatt 13d ago
Veganism doesn’t magically fix every problem, but it does fix the unnecessary animal exploitation problem, the one that it is intended to address. It is one part of the larger effort to make the world a better place.
We can work toward better labor practices and toward ending the unneccessarry exploitation and slaughter at the same time.
1
1
u/MustContinueWork 13d ago
This is 10th dentist, not r/unpopularopinion
This is just you proclaiming that positions that disagree with your morals seem unjustified to you (no shit)
3.This is also not r/offmychest
- Drawing the general principle that all vegans have the right to be upset form your own emotional state of being upset is tacky
1
u/grasseater5272 13d ago
correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t r/The10thDentist similar to unpopular opinion? If not I’ll post over there instead.
2
u/MustContinueWork 12d ago
Slight difference. The 10th dentist is originally seeking that one qualified opinion going against the grain. Like how when 9 out of 10 dentists recommend a product (like how it's portrayed in commercials), this sub sought the opinions of that 10th dentist.
Like a more quality version of unpopular opinion. Like say anyone can have a shit and unpopular opinion, but it takes something uncommon to have a qualified disagreement with popular consensus.
Capiche?
→ More replies (1)
0
u/WhateverItsLate 14d ago
I love vegans. When society crumbles and food is scarce, it will be nice to know grsin fed options sre on the menu.
-10
u/Deathaster 14d ago edited 14d ago
Ahh, as always, the millisecond vegans are mentioned on Reddit, everyone goes rabid. It's hilarious, as much as people online claim how militant and aggressive vegans are, I see far more people mocking and attacking them.
Think about it, you are trying to do the best you can to stop all forms of exploitation and you are ridiculed in the process
Cognitive dissonance. Deep down, people know that by eating meat, they're contributing to animal suffering. Because they don't like those thoughts, they either stop eating meat, or they try to push these thoughts away.
Seeing vegans makes them realize that yes, it's actually easy not to eat meat and reminds them of their inaction. Hence, they lash out.
Edit: I don't even need to prove it because these commenters are doing it for me lol
4
u/TooCupcake 14d ago
People lash out at vegans because just like you, they believe that their way is the only right way to live and they look down on anyone who chooses to live differently. It’s not much different from religions.
As for how easy it is to skip animal products, it might be if you don’t have any health conditions and have the extra budget for buying more expensive food. Non-dairy milk for example costs more than twice than cow milk where I live.
Another point where I struggle in finding a common ground with vegans is the hypocricy. My partner’s cousin is a millitant vegan all about the environment. She also bought a big ass car to drive two hours to and from work every day. No it’s not even electric. So while what you’re saying that people know that eating meat makes animals suffer might be true, people also know (including vegans) that driving big cars and not living close to your place of work does a lot of damage to the environment and people’s lungs, yet they still do it.
I don’t hate vegans, I support their freedom to do what they want, but they don’t seem to do the same for me. Not eating meat doesn’t make you better than the rest. Most of us are doing something to reduce our damage, whether it be not eating meat, not buying fast fashion, not driving a car, not taking a plane twice a month, buying things locally and so on.
I’d love to land on a discussion where we go “you don’t eat meat? That’s great I applaud your choice. I don’t drive a car.” “That’s great too, I’m so glad we are both trying to do better for the planet”
1
u/Deathaster 14d ago
People lash out at vegans because just like you, they believe that their way is the only right way to live and they look down on anyone who chooses to live differently. It’s not much different from religions.
I don't look down on anyone. I just find it hilarious how everyone on Reddit seems to consider vegans to be these elitists that think worse of anyone who isn't vegan, while simultaneously trashing on vegans and their choices any chance they get. Like people in this thread lol
And the part about cognitive dissonance is impossible to describe without sounding condescending, so I didn't even try. But I went through the same thing. I liked meat, but I didn't like animal suffering, so I didn't think about it. Eventually I relented and gave up meat for good.
Of course veganism is a HUGE life choice to make. I'm not even completely vegan, I still eat some products with dairy and eggs (it's just easier to say I'm vegan). So I wouldn't expect anyone to go that far. But just foregoing meat is super easy. You don't even need to stop eating it entirely, just doing it one time less a week is good.
That said, I don't care what other people do and whether they eat meat. I still appreciate and welcome any and all efforts, though. I just find the reactions of Redditors to the topic of veganism hilarious. So if you help the environment in other ways, that's fantastic. Perfect shouldn't be the enemy of good.
4
u/TooCupcake 14d ago
Reddit is always a mixed bag, you might have to scroll a long while to find actual nuanced opinions, especially on triggering topics like this. I don’t like bullies either way, doesn’t matter if they are anti-vegan or vegan.
I get what you mean about reducing meat, I myself more on the reduce food overconsumption and waste altogether. Many people overbuy fresh produce and then throw it out. And I agree many people eat way too much meat, like you don’t need a steak for lunch and dinner every day. But having a slice of ham in your breakfast sandwich shouldn’t be treated as a sin.
Tbh I think it all comes down to doing things in moderation. We harm the environment and the life around us just by existing, it’s not a judgement just a fact. Best we can do is to only use what we need and and only as much as we need.
1
-3
u/TheBlueWizzrobe 14d ago
Here's my hot take: vegans are better people, and I think it is fair for them to point that out so long as they aren't overly rude about it.
I myself am not vegan. I am pescatarian. Being vegan is not a thing that is personally convenient enough for me to want to do it at the moment. In my opinion, this is a moral blight on my part, and I am willing to admit that.
A single person's dietary choices is not significant enough to make a substantial impact on the enormous factory farming industry, so I don't blame any single person for not being vegan, including myself. But objectively speaking, being vegan is the morally superior choice. You can be a terrible person and be vegan, and you can be an amazing person while not being vegan, but the act of being vegan itself is a morally good one that makes a person just a little morally better overall in my opinion.
6
u/xfactorx99 14d ago
How can you say being vegan is objectively better morally? A lot of people will say there isn’t anything immoral about consuming meat as a source of nutrition. It is only morally better if your morals extend human rights to animals.
It’s just silly when people use the word “objective” incorrectly. If I can have a differing view than clearly it’s not objective
5
u/keIIzzz 14d ago
Considering humans are omnivores, and we are animals as well, it’s literally just the food chain. There’s nothing immoral about it. I can see why people have an issue with factory farming and the conditions animals are raised and kept in, but consuming animal products in general is not unethical.
2
u/TheBlueWizzrobe 14d ago
This is true, though it is probably more difficult for most people to live a lifestyle where they can ensure that every animal product they consume is sourced ethically than it is to just be vegan.
-3
u/TheBlueWizzrobe 14d ago edited 13d ago
It is objectively morally better assuming you have the most common, widely accepted axiomatic beliefs on morality. Not everyone does, sure. But factory farming is extremely harmful to animals, humans, and the planet. These are all things that most humans value.
People probably care about animals and the planet less than humans, but regardless, factory farming is terrible for humans anyways. It results in poor meat quality, increasing sickness and disease. It also increases antibiotic resistance of bacteria due to the sheer numbers of antibotics needed to keep the meat undiseased, which may have long-term consequences on our ability to combat bacterial diseases in the future. It greatly harms the mental health of those who work in the industry. It is one of the most physically dangerous industries to work in as well.
Factory farming obviously exploits animals far more than humans, but the human element still should not be overlooked. So by normal human moral standards, it is objectively more moral to be vegan.
There is of course no such thing as "objective morality" in a cosmic sense, but I do think it can still exist. We create objectivity through our own subjective experience. Math, for example, is an objective framework that we've created to parse our own subjectivities. So frameworks that we create can be objective through their own internal logic, but not much else. That being said, within the moral framework that all humans implicitly agree to via the social contract, it is objectively morally good to be vegan. By living in and participating in society you implicitly agree to a prescribed set of moral values that is enforced upon you and all others in society. Just as humanity has collectively agreed upon using math as a framework to parse the numbers we encounter in our subjective lives, we also have a broadly shared set of morals that we've collectively agreed upon to evaluate an individual's actions and how it should be addressed by society.
The vast majority of the human population shares the very simple belief that things that are beneficial to humans are good, and things that are detrimental to humans are bad, and they participate in a society in which that moral assumption is taken as a given. With that being the case, I personally take no issue with calling veganism an objective moral good. Just as one would be perfectly reasonable to call the murder of an innocent, perfectly good-natured 5 year old child to be an objectively morally bad thing, I take no issue with calling the act of being vegan an objectively morally good thing. But that's just my subjective opinion on the matter ¯_(ツ)_/¯
2
u/buggylover 13d ago
My reply to this is large so I will separate it into multiple comments.
The assumption that veganism is morally correct as presented by you is based around the issues of factory farming specifically, which is understandable but far too narrow. Factory farming is often awful for a variety of reasons such as the increased likelihood for disease to spread among the animals farmed there, humans working in the factories are more frequently exposed to animal-borne illnesses due to that proximity to so many animals constantly being packed together, the animals frequently being kept in terrible conditions, and the entire existence of chickens that effectively can't move due to becoming so fat for meat production among other problems. That said, that's just factory farming, there are far more ethical ways to raise animals.
Plenty of farm animals can also be grass-fed and wild game naturally exists in their wild habitats, so both of them have conditions ideal for living a more stimulating life where the spread of disease amongst themselves and to humans is not significant beyond natural rates. I understand that the killing of these creatures, even painless deaths, can also be viewed as amoral since they naturally fear pain and things that kill them just like we do. That said, just calling veganism morally correct is overly reductive and ignores many of the issues currently associated with veganism.
1
u/buggylover 13d ago
For one thing, some CURRENT vegan substitutes for animal products such as plastic-based replacements for leather have negative environmental impacts associated with them. Plastic-based leather does not break down in nature like animal-based leather does, contributing to the spread of plastic-based pollution which has a variety of negative health impacts on humans and animals in nature. I would argue it's morally preferable to used animal-based leather rather than plastic leather since that's more easily broken down by organisms in nature.
For another thing, implementation of vegan diets just isn't CURRENTLY feasible for a lot of people. Plenty of places have poor soil for agriculture, with people there making use of wild game for a good portion or even the majority of their nutritional needs. Transporting them goods from other areas takes fuel, time, a demand for the goods being sold, and the wealth to purchase them. It can be argued that this is more a flaw of our logistical and economic systems, and in an ideal scenario they would get these resources for free; but implementing such a dramatic restructuring of economic policies is difficult at best and takes time.
1
u/buggylover 13d ago
Speaking of wild game, lots of CURRENT ecosystems require regular human intervention to prevent wild animal populations from getting out of hand because we have introduced a huge number of invasive species to different habitats which impair the regular flow of nutrients in and out of those systems and disrupt ecosystem services, which we rely on. https://www.britannica.com/science/ecosystem-services
1
u/buggylover 13d ago
Deer are a huge example, they don't like a lot of invasive plants so a heavy presence of deer in an area results in the reduction of native plant populations (which a huge number of species directly and indirectly connected to them rely on) and the spread of invasive plants since native plants are less able to hold their own while constantly being grazed on. Predators of deer would help with this, but humans typically don't like large predator populations living near them; some people even hate the idea of coyotes living near them. Deer ALSO contribute to the spread of lyme disease (along with the white-footed mouse) since they are one of the primary hosts of deer tick nymphs, a vector of lyme disease. An increased presence of dead-end hosts (birds, lizards, many other mammals besides white-footed mice) helps to reduce this problem, but those animals don't do well in areas with heavy deer presence since all the native plants and their associated insects aren't doing well. Do you know what mammal does do well in difficult to live in areas with heavy deer population? White-footed mice, who also now don't have many predators in the area controlling them since there aren't many alternative prey items besides them. All of these things mean deer populations are ideal to control by us to prevent these problems from getting too bad, so why would it be unethical for us to also eat their meat, make clothes and other goods from their leather, and utilize their bones for broth and other uses?
1
u/buggylover 13d ago
Lastly, emphasizing the poor health conditions of people in factory farming is CURRENTLY a moot point when people also have a myriad of health issues in agriculture as it is too. https://foodprint.org/issues/labor-workers-in-the-food-system/
Many of the health issues in agriculture stem from overexposure to various chemicals, which can be reduced by reliance on other methods of pest control including biological control (using living things to reduce or control populations of other living things ex. ladybugs eating aphids), physical restructuring of agricultural areas to reduce pest presence (these can be varyingly impactful on the environment and nearby ecosystems), and forms of agriculture that dramatically reduce risk of pest exposure (ex. farming crops inside using UV lamps). That said, implementing these solutions isn't economically feasible for a lot of people at the moment compared to just growing some plants near your house. Biological control can be very cheap, but also frequently involves using organisms to kill and eat other ones, which also seems opposed to the ethical considerations of veganism to me (I imagine plenty of people see things differently and would love to hear how practicing vegans feel about it).
→ More replies (4)
-4
u/Dumi2e 14d ago
i think studying vegan/vegetarian philosophy is really valuable. for one of my uni classes we read some of peter singers work (mostly from his most recent textbook he had written at the time) and i found it very convincing. even his arguments about utilitarianism in general are really convincing and well structured imo. but yeah i think it sucks how hostile some people are to vegetarian/veganism. like its a personal choice, its not by default some character assassination to every person who eats meat
1
-1
u/ifunnywasaninsidejob 14d ago
People are offended that you are doing more than them to make the world better. It’s the same emotion you feel when you find out someone else volunteers on weeekends or regularly gives to charity. It makes you feel bad about yourself, which then manifests as anger
3
u/keIIzzz 14d ago
No one is offended by vegans lol, it’s the obnoxious “holier than thou” attitude that people hate. When you have a stick up your ass you tend to be unlikable. Making the food you eat or don’t eat your whole personality doesn’t make you the type of person people want to associate with
0
u/ifunnywasaninsidejob 14d ago
And people may perceive the vegans as being that way when it’s all on their imagination. Confirmation bias and all that.
0
u/unalive-robot 14d ago
Everyone has every "right" to be upset about anything. Doesn't mean anyone has to care. There's bigger battles.
0
u/Maria_506 14d ago
Hey, I have my right to express my opinion that animals don't deserve we give up eating meat for them. I believe your efforts are ridiculous.
0
u/keIIzzz 14d ago
I couldn’t care less about people being vegan, you do you, eat whatever you want. I only find the overly obnoxious ones who are assholes to non-vegans to be annoying as hell. I also find people obsessed with meat and shame those who don’t eat meat to be annoying as hell. Equal opportunity to be annoying as hell. Focus on yourself, not on what others choose to eat or not eat. There are literally so many other things to put your energy into
It’s like religion, you do you, but don’t try to shove it down others’ throats
-4
u/CumTilIPhilipRivers 14d ago
You sound protein deficient
-2
•
u/AutoModerator 14d ago
Upvote the POST if you disagree, Downvote the POST if you agree.
REPORT the post if you suspect the post breaks subs rules/is fake.
Normal voting rules for all comments.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.